Inquiry into forced adoptions
The federal senate has agreed to an inquiry into the practice of forcible adoption in Australia between the 1940s and ’80s, supporting a motion by Greens Senator Rachel Siewert on November 15.
“Today’s vote starts to recognise the suffering that so many people have endured as a result of forced adoption policies,” Siewert said. “There is no doubt that many women were treated very badly as a result of these policies. Young and vulnerable mothers were pressured into adoptions, and often had to surrender their newborn children without being allowed to see them.
“For many mothers and children, the emotional and psychological damage of these policies continues, and will be felt for the rest of their lives. We must do all we can to address this.”
Calls for an inquiry into, and apology to the victims of forced adoption have been mounting on the wake of campaigns for justice for the Stolen Generations of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Many of the pretexts used for stealing babies from Aboriginal people were also used to steal babies from non-Aboriginal people, particularly those who were economically or socially marginalised.
Typically, the victims of forced adoption were young, unmarried women and their babies. Reactionary ideologies that cast women who had premarital sex as having sinned justified both a cruel official policy and unsympathetic treatment by medical staff and bureaucrats.
Submission to the inquiry must be sent to or Senate Community Affairs Committee, Department of the Senate, PO Box 6100, Canberra 2600, before February 28. Notes to help prepare a submission are available at www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/wit_sub/index.htm .
From GLW issue 867
"Australia has the most restrictive media in the western world. Censorship by omission denies Australians their democratic right to make sense of whole stratas of political and foreign policy. That's why Green Left Weekly is a beacon, doing a job of honourable journalism, as an agent of people, not power."
Comments
The sensitivity and hope for strength for forced adoptions perso
I know this topic is filled with grief and loss and I as a natural parent/mother have found great solace in other writers who I've delved their writings and found jewels.
For all those who are suffering, and yes I suffer too, yet see some light, I wish you to know we are all interconnected, there's no doubt about this [I've found it in synchronous seredipitous experiences in my life, almost like little miracles of wonder amidst depths of darkness and pain] in ways logic and reason cannot tell us.
The following is from Elizebeth Kubler Ros who has written so much about loss not least and not only about death loss.
"The most beautiful people we have known (and know) are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known Loss, and have found their way our of the depths.
These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern.
Beautiful people do not just happen."
As I've said so often along my own journey I wish every single one who has lost to forced adoptions, I am one of you, a transcendence, and forgiveness in their/our hearts, supportive people who care and show that care in the most courageous and loving ways, to aid your movement forward with enthusiam for our each and every one of us, and this only one life on these fragile earth. Somthing so beautiful is at work which serves to nurture each of our individial journeys, though it brings us challenges which seem insurmountable and beyond all human comprehension.
[For those who think we have other lives beyond this one only, this still applies, it's just different.]
As Anais Nin also said "You are the creative force - go with the force."
May the Report on the senate Inquiry into Forced adoptions bare fruits and caring, compassionate and sensitive ones, showing real beauty in those who follow it through, and may healing happen for all so each and every forced adoption target finds ways out of the depths.
All my best
Creative and warmest regards
Pamela Bridgefoot
Pan Melos Galerie
We want justice for coerced adoption mums and babies
We want justice for each and every biological mum, the dads who admitted they were the dads, and their babies.
We want Justice! we want Justice! We want Justice!
The Report is not all there is to Justice, there's actions needed to remedy all the
ill will in particular toward the biological mums, thereby their babies.
No more taking anything away from people in vulnerable or disadvantaged circumstances. Australian's as a whole are bigger than that crass conduct from so called officials.
Admitting wrongs past and present is commendable and time to do that.
We want Justice! We want Justice! we Want Justice for forcoed adoption biological mums. dads and their babies.
Randwick (Musicians Co-op)
Looks like they're all trying to do this all over again
There's no way in aware Australia they can get away with doing this all over again to our most disadvantaged.
They're certainly trying it on though.
It wont work a second time around, too many are outraged at this rampant out in the open now tragic injustice.
My best wishes as our hearts goes out to the victimised in this atrocious history of Australia's.
Corey and Jess
Three cheers Reg L and I secoond your comment
Three cheers Reg L I second your comment to this forced adoption fiasco.
I know how much these corporate charities are getting from a work experience I;ve had a C.E.O. from an ethical company.
I never heard of such a thing as Forced adoptions until I saw it on 4 Corners and it's astonishing it has been kept secret for all these years.
Secrets that kept these women down and ruined their lives as was shown on 4 corners.
From what I've read and heard from my friends and family this was vast numbers of mothers and babies and I can imagine a few dadsthat wanted to be with their adolescent girlfriends. It's a tragedy, they needed support as every one needs it when their in vulnerable or with this frightening situations.
My son is married to a woman who was adopted out and we're now trying to find out if she was one of the babies they took from mothers by force.
It's been difficult trying to talk with some of the organisations we know of who had her in care when she was born.
If it's the case she was one of the babies from Forced adoptions we stand up and go to court, on principle and for the mother and father as well, on principle.
Jim
Give the mothers their due; apologies and compensation
If the 4 Corners show was for real and it was, give the mothers all of them, apologies and compensation.
Take it out of the wealthy benevolent society's mass accumulation of property and moneys gained under guise of a "charity" how crude is that.
Take it out of the Salvation Army's trust fund where everyone whose anyone gives them lots of money to help.
Both these organisations damaged rather than helped their clients.Take the fund ng out for compensation from government funds that have been stashed away as we all know the Australian government is not poor.
Give it to those struggling or on the margins who lost to forced adoptions, it's their due, they lost and paid a hefty price now it's time for the malicious who did wrong to pay their price. Fair is fair.
They need to pay up now.
I send the victims my respect and think you now deserve to live your lives free of all the shaming and blaming they placed entirely on your maternal lap.
Reg L.
'Forced Adoptions were like medical rape ....'
Not being left or right as they have become too alike, I still find this Green Left Weekly always fronting with truths and articles that reveal what actually happened, not spin.
I just saw 'Forced Adoption was like medical rape, says WA victim' from
720 ABC Mornings today Perth progamme, and it was shocking, just like all the things I've some time ago known about, and recently the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions and the Report.
The person who wrote about the Report not being able to educate the mass of Australian public I second that, as to download it as I was about to try at the local library would have cost me $64.20 (that's 2 20cents per page there), and I wont afford to pay this even for a Report I want to read at my own pace and via book form, not online. (our printer has gone broke, and is presently being replaced at work).
(I'm medically not able to read online that lengthy anything unfortunately.)
Anzac day just passed and all I could think of was the unjust wars, the 2nd world war and Vietnam, and low and behold Forced Adoptions for some odd reason to.
It's probably that's it's topical and that I now understand a lot about the ways of discrimination akin to a war against unmarried mothers and their babies at a certain time in Australian history.
That history is now on Hansard and it's never too late to make a new history by implementing the solid and more respectful recommendations of the Report.
We'll agree to disagree about any 'National Frameworks' unless that's purely word speak for 'national' 'what a word that, as I've seen first hand the atrocious 'National Framework' for our original people in the Northern Territory where I visited as a law student and know it's all totally unjust.
Law student and concerned citizen of Australia
ACT
Lift the unjust and wrongly placed shame off the birth muums and
Bottom Line
Between the politicolegal & the print news media the public discourse grew to assume and print out and dissemintae untruths wrongly that the birth mums and their babies were shameful.
All the governments of the of Australia and associated adoption hospitals and agencies now have an imperative need to lift that wrongly placed shame off these people.
The Report needs ro not only be implemented also to be implemented respectfully taking this into account.
Take back the shame that damaged many thousands of lives and as we've now discovered destroyed altogether far too many.
In the name of "Nuclear families for infertile couples" and a lot of this is from gathered material from many papers and magazines of the time as well as from Kornitzers well written article.
Neville and Marilyn
I second Cran
I'm a Clinical Psychologist and Cran is correct.
The terminology used in adoptions is out of date.
In this instance the birth mother was further abused and discriminated against on grounds of a disability.
I also think this misperception that forced adoption tragets need help because they're "sick" is obscene.
The are suffering a psychological injury or for some several and are not psychopaths.
The language of adoption is well noted for being negative baised against the birth mothers, I've written a whole paper on this and as yet have not had it published.
All my best respect for the people who pioneered this social cause and all the people who made submissions and equally all those who couldn't as they were too bereft or unfit in other ways (but not sick or lacking courage).
The Australian Government of all levels has a lot to answer fo, we weren't China then and aren't China now.
Jenny
Access to the Report on the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoption
The outrageous fact is the only way anyone can access the report to take home and read it all (323 pages) is by going to the one and only ACADEMIC library as in the National Library of Australia.
This is outrageous. The Report is about and for all Australians and should be available in as many libraries as possible.
For now if you want to get a copy all you can do is go to your local library and pay a hefty $13.00 for inter-library loan, because it'd from an ACADEMIC library.
This is pure elitism and unjust.
Demanding this be rectified.
Every Australian library should be able to access the Report on the Senate Inquiry into Forced adoptions, and without this taking time and costing monies as in $13.00 at least, just for the read of it.
Outrageous.
As if this is all about academics and as if academics have had any if any at all input into the creative aspects of Forced Adoptions, very few indeed.
All Australians are entitled to have informed material available top them from all Australian libraries, not one or two academic ones.
What utter intolerable discrimination yet again.
Bronwyn
Forced Adoptions individuals are not to be treated as if this is
This "Nationalisation" of forced adoption as in a "National Framework" is so wrong.
They did this with our original people and look at the bungle there.
There is a difference between Forced adoptions and the Stolen Generations, and there is also a need for all the truly free thinkers to stand up and be counted.
Nationalising what is for each and every individual in the collective that is Forced Adoptions is not the right way to go even if they will fund the reparations.
They/Government fund universities to, yet they are not "nationalised".
The Report is to me only fair.
Geoffrey
Academic
Discrimination and Forced Adoptions
The Report that has come out on the 29th February is moving in many ways.
I am appreciative of all the hard work the Senators from all political parties did and how they were all with Empathy, and one who shone was of course the Spokesperson who instigated it all senator Rachel Siewert. Her words resonate even as I write this, very human, very reason-able. very sincere, so caring. What a wonderful politician and person.
As were many if not most of the Senators, all really.
I want to write briefly about the Discrimination that still happens despite the news media coverage of this Inquiry and now the Report .
Latter (the Report) is in the National Library, but unavailable at my local libraries, and not available for a lot of people to access who don't live near the National library, this isn't so good, but can be rectified if more copies go out there into the public domain.
The Discrimination hapens whenever anyone tells certain negative biased or ignorant, mindles people who can't handle any kind of psychological disabilities such as reactive depression or accumulative p.t.s.d., and there are some birth mothers probably some birth fathers also who have disclosed such diagnoses only to be fired from their workplaces after these admissions.
That's discrimination and it is happening today to some people who have disclosed the causes and effects of the trauma of forced adoption, even without mentioning anything about their experiences of forced adoptions to their employers or whoever.
The labels are for cans, and do not mean someone is mentally ill, as they are in fact with psychological injuries, which, with the right fit analyst and a lot of time can be cured to a godd extent. These "labels" also are not rigid, as each individual is unique, yet many would have flashbacks, trouble with panic attacks (not that anyone but themselves can see) and similar episodes, not aggressions or anti-social behaviours.
We've began to address the discrimination of unmariied mothers and fathers losing their infants to coerced adoptions, and the causes and effects, and now need to understand labels can be destructive if they are discriminated against also.
Reactive depression, a known from experiences of very profound trauma loss is effects of extreme bullying and very tragic loss, and accumulative p.t.s.d. is caused and has effects from very profound trauma and loss which when not dealt with at the time of trauma becomes accumulative,
Neither are mental illnesses they are psychological injuries, and the nonsense and discrimination that some employers and service providers as well as others place on targets of forced adoptions when they find out anyone has one or both of these can be devastating,
An example I found was the woman on Indy news media who lost her job after she disclosed she had a form of depression (without telling the employer is was from reliving yet again the trauma of her forced adoption loss) via a doctors certif. for one day off from work to have counselling.
The Discriminations have to stop and people who fear psychological injuries or mental illness may have to face their fears of these conditions which are not bully-sociopath sicknesses, far from it, they are not "catchy" and there are laws now via the Anti discerimination Boards in Australia which don't allow discrimination on the basis of a psychological injury/disablity, as there should have been with the status of unmarried mothers times of forced adoptions.
Thanks Green Left Weekly
Cran
To correct the ignorance,
The Report contravenes WELA and others Truths found
The Report into the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions has a submission for the Senate Inquiry that shows more than one truth that the Forced Adoptions were under the influences of the Commonwealth Government.
The Report however denies this and other truths and states it was porbably not influential in forced adoptions, and contravenes the truths found.
The Womens Electoral Lobby and others found evidence that indisputably shows the Commonwealth did have large influence of Forced Adoptions.
What are the people of Australia to trust and believe with all this.
When will the Commonwealth Government be accountable for it's role as well as all the State and Territories roles in this horrendous social injustice, as well as others past and present.
I commend the Greens for showing real leadership with this inquiry and the Report.
The Recommendations are to be implemented as of 29th May 2012.
Whatever way the progressive governments will not allow truths found to lay dorment.
The cat is out of the bag and the people want social justice with this and other atrocious social injustices in Australia.
Truth not only surfaces it ultimately has effects that eliminate unconscionable conduct from governments, churchs and corporations who do such massive wrongs or dismiss truth,
This has all happened before and will happen with this too.
Abi(gail)
Forced Adoption Report needs to be acted upon
Apparently they are going to start the ball rolling with their Report findings after 29th May 2012, that is 3 months after the Report from the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions came out.
It's all a horrible time in Australian History.
The Salvation Army have a lot to answer for.
They are one of the first who should be apologising alongside the governments all of them.
I want to say to all the mums and children who were treated abominably and it seems to me tortured by their experiences, you deserve all that's in that report and some more.
Violence against women and mothers in particular in this case is zero tolerance in where I come from. There should be zero tolerance of violence against women and birth mums and their babies for gods sake always.
T.J.
Request for Christine Milne to give a nudge with the Report
The Report could be a stagnant and useless one unless someone like the new incoming leader of the Greens Christine Milne gives it a nudge.
Coerced Adoptions or Forced Adoptions a very serious social injustice and isn't to be trifled with.
The Report has had little media deserving much more.
Where is any media on The Report actually.
If you read this Christine Milne [Greens Leader incoming] consider this request for that Report being for real, not just words on paper.
Sad to hear Bob Brown is leaving also, what a great man.
Thanks and best to the forced adoptions mums and children.
Willis
Forced Adoptions is all about 'power bullies' hurting the vulner
Forced adoptions is all about bullys hurting the vulnerable.
It's depsicable and needs reparation
S.
Then and now
Prenant, birthing and unmarried women & girls then and now have and do face ongoing discrimintaions. It hasn't stopped, and largely because of church much so, and then the governments. Who has power over who in Australia. Churchs and corporations [often one and the same] have lot of power over governments and this is nothing new.
Why do we see 'marital status' as one amid few numbers of key areas of just policy; complaints and investigations of the Anti-Dicsrimination Boards in Australia, and the Human Rights Commissions of Australia.
Also, I think whoever writes of 'the White Stolen Generation' inadvertantly, unconsciously or otherwise throws a fractured light on Forced Adoptions of Babies in Australia.
There are horrendous discriminations in both, very noticeable ones, there are some similarties, yet most of all Forced Adoptions is different in many ways.
Both of course unconscionable.
Both show all the world how negative prejudiced a lot of Australia has been and still is.
Thanks and good luck with the released Report for all affected by Forced Adoptions.
Abi(gail)
They've written the Report now it's time they all acted
The Senate Inquiry into forced adoptions has now finalised it's Report.
It's a report that is a long and a long time time coming after an avalanche of terribly tragic stories of emotional hardship and contemptuous treatments by people meant to be caring and compassionate.
When do the personnel handling the Report start the recommendations rolling.
I'm sad to hear this inquiry has caused rifts between differing adoption support groups.
I'm sad to hear one is adamant an apology is not enough.
An apology is not enough that's right yet the Report recommends more than a superficial apology.
I keep reading about forced adoptions and have beside me a partner who was adopted and has gone through some terrible times in life due to the trauma associated with her adoption, it all has to come to a place where those that think big business only stop and start thinking about others, and those who crony in groups and wont allow any adoptions whatsoever start to also think outside that square.
Best wishes go to all like my partner who is finding this Inquiry and the Report more than difficult to accomodate along with her responsibilities and rights.
Human rights should be looking at this where are they and why haven't they looked at the rediculous discrimination that happened.
Unwed did not and never has meant not good to parent.
It denies the churches marriage fees, that's about it isn't it.
I think Greens Senator Rachel Siewert has done a lot of work for this inquiry and the sufferers who went through it what they've done it's enormous, starting way back, now the politicians should do the work of making the Report for real.
It's pointless to come this far and leave everyone in anguish or suffering further because they now have more flashbacks than ever.
My partner has some issues and she's dealing with them professionally.
The Politicians and corporations, Churchs and Governments may need to deal with the Report by this time or soon.
Jack
Desperate measures and their aftermaths
It's clear by now to all thinking people forced adoptions were a desperate social injustice.
It's clear to all conscionable the Australian Senate Inquiry into forced adoptions has been a long time coming as has been the Report.
Prior to this Australian Inquiry and report overseas in UK the PM David Cameron (who now wants to sell roads) made the statement loud, and not clear by reasonable mindfulness
"This country MUST become more pro-adoption".
The extract is found on the following site
www.telegraph.co.uk/family/8859845/David-cameron
otherwise under The Telegraph UK Pro-Adoption.
Whilst selling object is a done thing, I'm unsure what on earth about selling a country's roads but sounds too far gone, but babies no, they're not for sale via adoptions increasing or any other means. I know that's over there found it on another site and was repelled.
There's some connection and it's large revenue. Other people's babies are big business, that's a tragic reality given what has been shown to us about forced adoptions in Australia.
Desperate measures don't allow thinking time to understand the repercussions on individuals families and societies.
I live in hope the Australian Telegraph and All news media including Green left Weekly don't lose sight of human life as a priority and looking after our cherished families of origins whether we become autonomous and move on and away still remaining significant. Mothers and their babies have a human right to justice with forced adoptions and also have human rights when involved in any adoptions. It's a tragedy not a comedy or something we look at as if "this will bring in the corporate bucks needed".
I'm not anti-adoption extreme, I'm concerned desperate measures are returning to remedy economics examples where they don't belong.
We're a bit warmer here in Australia aren't we?
In hope
Dwyer and co.
Social worker tells of forced adoptions
For those interested in further insights into forced adoptions ABC Four Corners also have a transcript written by Geoff Thompson titled
Social Worker tells of forced adoptions (ABC Four Corners updated 27.02.2012
In hope the Report eventuates in an abundance of authentic apologies and recompense to all who have been damaged by these devastating and tragic forced adoptions.
They are as Senator Moore said now written in Australian history, a history that doesn't need repeating.
We need to move on from repressive coercive policies and practices regarding all social injustices and for this one there's been some movement, more to come.
Marty
The Salvation Army want own Inquiry via "Internal Investigations
It seems one corporation are living up to well known corporate tacs and this being the Salvation Army.
See National Post about a day ago now.
They have not as yet shown the grace to apologise to all those mothers and their infants targeted for forced adoptions remaining silent and out of the picture whilst they do their "Internal Investigations". Part of this is "Probing" people who go to them about their stories.
Some call this corporate lack of accountability, though astonishingly the Salvation Army have told one enquiring man "We didn't know about all this".
Are they as "Untouchable" as Dr. Geoffrey Rickarby has quoted as saying in his Parliamentary Inquiry Submission (See Excerpts of this)?
Whatever, they as the others face consequences if they continue to discount their huge role in Coerced Adoptions in Australia.
Al Carmichael
The commentor and about helplessness, brilliant
Some people see the whole picture including the nuances and anon whoever she or he is does with the comment about helplessness, and including powerlessness in circumstances where coercion is that intolerable as forced adoptions and the like.
It's important to to also say no to all bully's as their in high positions even as others often do their work, and in terrorising ranks amongst the people who forever want the most of the international cake.
Thanks
Good work on this social issue Green Left Weekly.
Lis
No one's making comparisons in the way it may appear
Trust all who read the comment 5.27 Wednes. don't misunderstand the true meaning.
No comparisons in one vital sense at all, couldn't be, we have social consciences and deepest empathy.
It's the timing, a lot on the alert about another social injustice as you at Green Left Weekly would know.
All the best to targets of forced adoptions, though they happened yesterday, and things are happening today, possibly tonight, very soon anyway.
It's important NOT to ever feel helpless as we are not.
The powers that be so want us to feel this way highlighted at present.
Cheers
Helplessness is not on our agenda - thats what governments want
When you look at Forced adoptions as a professional you see how helpless the targets were whilst every ment to be authority abused their power.
The helplessness is now heightened for the world as we are fiorced to hear about different but nonetheless tortures, as say has been dealt to David Hicks, just different forms of making the target feel and be helpless in major ways.
The way to not be involved in this totally unconscionable conducts of Australian and international governments, crude far right churchs, and corporations including big media is to stand outside of all corruption chaos and abuse.
It belongs to them not you..
All the governments in Australia, all the religious organisations and the staff who didn't speak up are guilty of very profound and disgusting Abuse of power.
Consequences happen. Just you wait and see.
For the targets of forced adoptions you will receive your reparations and rewards for the ability to have withstod this horror of all the tragic suffering inflicted by unconscionable who abuse power in vicious ways which are flagrantly disgraceful.
To al lwho face feeling powerless, don't allow your selves to be victims of this, you have personal power which politicians and neocons don't even know exists.
I'm with you in more ways than one, and proactive.
We're all, a lot of us on the case.
Lawyers of conscience
To Anon Sunday 11/3/2012 2.36pm ...You were supported
I say to the Anon from Sunday good on your dad for having the humanity to support you during your adolescent pregnancy, what a decent family you have.
It's relevant for this reason if no other.
I know a lawyer in a chambers who works and overworks and lost her baby when she was sdolescent. She appears like the altogether woman of town, attractive, appealing, without a doubt. Cold to every advance or friendliness from anyone except my husband and I as far as I know.
Beneath the surface she's carrying a weight that makes her workaholic lifestyle feel too similar to the heavy weight she had to carry when she was sixteen years old unmarried and about to give birth. I've heard the whole story and the details are shocking by anyone's standards.
The difference from your family Anon is that her family as well to do as they were sent her off to the country where she stayed until time for the maternity hospital, birth of her already pre-planned adopted baby. The woman didn't pre-plan the adoption the society did and her parochial parents who cared about what the neighbours thought did it all without her knowledge or even her thoughts or feelings about it all. Shameful.
Tragic and traumatic for this woman who'se got it all with a lot missing.
Society's role models, solciety's attitudes and values come from the media and governments as well as the church. Too much hype back then not so far away about whether one was married or not, rediculous, an adolescent with a baby kicking inside.
The churchs certainly had more appeal then, more parishioners than now.
Main point is you were supported by your father who could ward off the nasties at friends'home' the nasties at the hospital, the bureaucrats and terror mongers and actively malicious wrong doers, when this woman I know was brutalised until she had to pretend all along and still does this 'I'm happy see my smile and note my position'
She's still pretending, and playing a role only.
When I asked her why she didn't put a submission in as her story is too obnoxious, and I;'d checked to see if it was there, her response was "I don't trust them, do you think they care?"
I understood from several vantage points most of all from seeing how coerced adoption had impacted on her so deeply, traumatically and causing her to avoid everything except her career. Too sad for her and her family.
She knows she can now litigate, and I'm unsure what will happen from here on in however I jhope for her there are public apologies.
The family are not my favourites never could be.
Well done for Sunday's Anon's dad being supportive and there for you, so human and how it should have been for all these young ones.
The targets are owed many years of compensation
I've now read extensively and have all the news clippings as well as the media reviews on Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions.
I've watched many television shows, some leaving me cold, others as ABC disurbing and more understanding.
For the damaging effects forced or coerced adoptions have had on all the indivdiual targets it's time to make amends.
I'm fighting for justice for these people who were unjustly shamed, guiltmongered, humiliated and alienated not only from their own first families also by the governments corporations and churches involved.
This collection of evidence I have amounts to a thesis.
To justice and healing for the targets of coerced adoptions.
Akira
Dorced adoptions have nothing to do with the strong or the weak
Forced adoptions, all tortures have nothing to do with being stronger or weaker.This doesn't come into the equation.
There's actually no such thing as this.
Forced adoptions happened no matter what character and will the recipients had.
Good on one family for keeping their geneology but what does that have to do with forced adoptions.
Whose better than who.
It's sad when these comparisons so not applicable are made.
Probably to say how fair to one or two Crown Street was, don't think for a minute they were except for that few unmarried women and their babies who didn't lose their roots.
They could take anything away from me but my will, however...
To Anon 11.26 Sunday 11/12/2012
Your stories about generatuions staying together, families with the wherewithal to keep your infants was moving and I liked reading your joy. as well as your sadness at what happened to forced adoptions targets,
The one parting of ways is this:
I know of an adolescent who could bend but not break and has a sleeley will yet despite all this under the circumstances out of her control she was drugged so heavily and thereby stupified to a place she calls shock in extreme and no consciousness she signed papers to lose her baby under these. Not only this they wouldn;t allow her any food until and unless she signed that form for Consent to lose what she had no idea was just that.
She was virtually starved for two whole weeks except for a piece of Christmas cake on Christmas day at Salvation Army Hospital, that alone even without the drugs imposed whilst she fought would weaken anyone, yet it didn't weaken her will, the unprescribed drugs and combined controlling by abuse of the givers of these did.
If if weren't otherwise she as you and your mum would now be able to see their very young grandchildren too; they would be able to say as you we weren't disturbingly and disgracefuly pressured to extent of no choice whatsoever.
The son this woman gave birth too looks almost the same age as the biological mother and identical to the biological father. At a reunion lunch the waitress asked the young son would he like to order for his girlfriend when she was in fact his mother. You see the mother was very young highly vulnerable and not given absolutely any opportunity to fight the systems then; steeleu will or otherwise. All was taken from her without her knowing or consent.
I like your story think it's a relief stpry and good one, except it doesn't deal with the Very profound traumaic loss of forced adoptions. I;'m glad you didnlt have to go through waht my friend did for sure.
If someone as my friend with a sreeley will all her life could lose under those extreme gyno. and maternity hospital staff and abhorrent conditions I'd say your comment reflects how your own mothers parents and your self didn't coerce anyone by foul means tp extreme, and nor did the hospital staff or social workers and whoever else on both occasions.
With all this goes my joy for you and your family not being part of the writhe and treachorous forced adoptions scandal.
Enjoy your loving family it's certainly an extended one we need more of these, and it;s commendable you see how horribly harsh it was for those who have gone through what you didn't have to.
How we wish not all had the extreme circumstances encouched on them such as the ones my friend and tens of thousands of others did. You didn't lose family ties they did tragically.
Jesse
forced adoptions so prevelent in this era of australian history
i myself was born in crown street maternity hospital during 1960, to a single mother and she in turn kept me but this was only because she had the will power to keep me, she in turn then left the hospital with me and her father helped raise me until she met a gentleman who became my stepdad and they married,,i then proceed to have a baby myself during 1978, although still frowned apon i kept him and wouldnt change a thing, and i feel for the women who had noone and were forced to giveup there babies i had all four of my children without marrying their dad, and today at 51years of age im about to have my 15th grandchild and for this im eternally grateful for my mothers determination tp keep me because each generation is pure joy to our family...because also for many families this was so frowned upon or never spoken about...but with honesty of where you come from does help the family stay strong...illegitimate children deserve their biological roots just does anyone.
Benevolent Society and their PARC are not appropriate for....
The NSW Government ignored the 1994 Parliamentary Inquiry into Forced Adoptions and so did the Benevolent Society who have their P.A.R.C.'s where people had to go to pay for ifentifying info. and organise reunions, and as latter have apologised, and were part of it they all should have nothing to do with anything but further apologies and compensations to targets of forced adoptions.
NSW government ignoring that Inquiry is shameful.
It had to take 2011 and 2012 before this authentic Inquiry cam about.
Shame on NSW Government, they always seem to turn away from their responsibilities.
They need to apologise today, as well as the other states and territories except Western Australia who already have.
No one should have to go to Benevolent Society for anything to do with forced adoptions, not now.
Even if they hadn't apologised they did their damage, and in their best interests they did apologise. They are millionaries.
As did the NSW government dismiss the whole 1994 Inquiry, shame.
We need ethical organisations who are not afraid to authentically apologise and show these apoligies are for real by actions not just words so the targets are no longer with their stigma and setbacks.
So many were left so bereft they live today in a manner no one would want them to, that's shameful also.
Cheers
Marty and Carmel
I've been misinformed about Niolca too, apologies galore
Though I think the apologies should be coming in thick and fast from all governments in Australia for Forced Adoptions,
Not to do with this but other comments Malcolm and I apologise for saying Nicola Roxon and her team were responsible for the Northern Territory Intervention.
I'm sure a lot of parliamentarians and bureaucrats had a lot to do there and did it unjustly, though it was Jenny Macklin MP who started that mess-up in parts of Northern Territory and most importantly the "Intervention" and it continues.
Sometimes it's that a politician does something and another gets the credit and sometimes it's that a politician does something and another gets the flack, how it goes.
Doesn't mean I or Malcolm are into news media that's untruthful, we're not writing here about anything but truths being raised, so apologies given.
For all the forced adoptions targets not only the ones who gave witness there is imperative need for a National as well as State, Territory apology/s and follow through of the most relevant recommendations for the targets, ones that help their healing all of them, not piecemeal or tokenism as one commenter has said.
We all make mistakes, however when they damage hurt or harm to the extreme degree forced adoptions have, this is now raised, there's no turning back, and absolute need for apologies and reparations.
Thanks
Abi(gail)
I meant jenny Macklin not nicola Roxon re. NT Intervention
I've made a mistake on this website saying it was Nicola Roxon and her advisors who instigated the NT Intervention when it was another government and it was the politician Jenny Macklin who said 'closing the gap' whilst widening it to her shame.
Jenny Macklin and her advisors are who I really meant.
I apologise for this error, it was a human error.
Appointed for now ministerJenny Macklin and her advisors have a lot to answer for regarding their appalling atrocious actions and demoralising the original peoples in the Northern Territory Intervention.
Causes and effects on our original peoples another shameful past and present.
Differently, and on topic, as far as I know the forced adoptions Report is now out and it's I'm told worth reading though lengthy, not too long.
I stand by my other comments regarding the unconscionable organisations, governments corporations and churchs (some churchs haven't as yet apologised)
Am concerned about this social injustice and proactively concerned.
Cheers
John
Getting rid of the displaced Guilt and Shame
Despicably there were staff such as nurses and social workers at the maternity hospitals where Coerced adoptions rampantly happened during Australian baby scoop ers who thrived and survived on gulitmongering. The ploy of those who displace their own guilt as well as shame.
One example only of their guiltmonering in these horrific abuses:
By making the girls or women sign their own consent forms under duress whilst semi-conscious, and undoubtedly in shock, even as their parents or legal guardians had already without the birthing girls or women knowing this signed other such forms, the social workers or nurses displaced their own guilt, and shame supposedly saying ' it wasn't of nor in my hands'.
This happens in other situations whereby the guilty wanting to disown their own shame and guilt displace it onto the innocent and unaware. At times on the aware who have no other choices but to sign certain forms.
The despicable tactics of guiltmongerers and shame makers is well known and is carried out in deceitful ways.
Coercions rely on these tactics and treachorously rob the targets of horrific abuse of any auronomy in freedom of choices or voices.
Getting rid of the guilt and shame is done by consciously not owning the others fault.
The guiltmongers can all take back their own guilt and shame and own it themselves.
Having no empathy or felow feeling that's hard asks of them.
Ultimately they do face the consequences of their abominable actions.
Time.
Thanks
Abi(gail)
The Stewarts meant *Vetted* no doubt
I think The Stewarts meant *Vetted* and that's appropriate,
Good on the writers of that comment it does show us all some truisms.
Cheers
Ricky
4 Corners 'Given or Taken' shows Vetting at it's most deplorable
Truth: Forced or Coerced Adoptions are and were illegal.
The program on ABC Television 'Given or Taken' was filled with Vetting.
There's no excuse for this.
The only people who weren't party to this vetting were the individual victimised.
They have too much support now for the government to further use this kind of unconscionable wrong doing.
Whose Senator Rachel Siewert serving, or is she just doing her job and following orders whilst self promoting at the expense of the damaged some to greater or lesser degree, all as human as she is supposed to be.
This is going to backfire on the perpetrators ultimately.
Reasonable, thoughtful people can see this vetting and we're huge numbers now.
Move out of your 'They" and into standing on your own two feet [be individual and with your own voice] you cowards at ABC and in the Government departments as well as medical professions churchs etc
.
The Stewarts
Truth about 4 Corners 'Given or Taken'
The prorgan aured on ABC 4 Corners on 25th February 2012 namedly 'Given or Taken' about Forced Adopions was vetted.
It's worth all decent men and women especially the government examining the footage from Nuremberg Trials War Trials from 1945 - 1949, there's a similarity in the vetting.
With exceptions of the victimised and Dr. Rickarby maybe one or two others, the whole show was professionals saying "they" instead of "I". That's atrocious and professionally filed now.
Perfect legal cover up for Senator Rachel Siewert's what is commendable Inquiry.
Yet exposed for what it was now.
Even the Senator couldn;t say the truth that sgning under duress is illegal, or that it was all illegal.
Vet and you think you'll get away with this.
You will not
Shameful and very telling of what this government and the news media are allowing as per their directors, to be shown to the public.
Shameful to all concerned.
Truth media is needed now.
My character goes out to the only people with character on the whole show, because they spoke truth and for themselves as one, not they, those individually victimised.
The Stewarts
Corrections
The correction is this it was aired that Nicola Roxon said the Government would have to consider this.
I am not taking away from the comments here as we all know that woman's track record in Human rights, or as you've said 'her advisors track record'.
Millions spent on what was meant to be for welfare of our first people's went to bureacrats and homes for same didn't happen. shameful.
Re this Forced Adoptions the Report is out and about and I think any sensible government official would realise the potential to be displaced if they took it for granted they can get away with murder with these people yet again.
Malcolm
Nicola and her invisible advisors you mean
It's slightly different V.V.
Some day there may be a Senate Inquiry into the Northern Territory Intervention as Prof. Lorissa Berendt has said.
The Senate Inquiry demands that even someone like Nicola Roxon and her advisors do the right thing.
This is very different to the N.T. Intervention.
I can see how you could be dubious about Nicola, who can't.
On the other hand she stands accountable scrutinised and judged (who knows what else, maybe out the door) if she hasn't noticed the public outrage at Forced Adoptions as well as the Report's rightful recommendations as aired in news anyway.
Best to the victimised, you're on the map and we care as a nation about your well being.
We're all behind you with positive well wishes only.
Cheers
John
The Report is out but Nicola Roxon has to "consider it"
The Report on "Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions" tabled now, as from Wednesday 25th February 2012 states clearly "History books will now have the truth" but guess whose been chosen to "consider" the Report Recommendations, none other than the woman and her invisible team of bureaucrats and others who inistigated the often called shameful Northern Territory Intervention what too many consider a blunder and damaging toward our first people.
Many there have been completely demoralised as a consequence of the "Intervention".
Nivcola to "consider" that's a bit rich.
That's no worries as too many high profile professionals are now forming their own cases and seeking this social injustice has authentic Apologies and reparations.
Abi(gail)
Nicola Roxon has to "consider" the report, who chose her?
The woman whose invisible team and self stood and stand behind the Northern Territory Intervention Nicola Roxon (minister) "has to consider the (Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions) REPORT before any recommendations ..."
This is disgraceful such a social injustice as this one (or many) has been given to her and her colleagues (unseen)to "consider"
What next Nicola. You get to choose every Report that carries any weight, You and your invisible team.
We all stand by the victimised and the REPORT as tabled, those of us conscionable.
In hope
Carl
4 Corners ABC program and my friends views and facts known
A friend of mine has told me how they watched the ABC 4 Corners show on television 'Given or Taken' and this was their response:
"Many still seem to be using the nazi excuse that they were just doing their job and that they felt they were doing the best for the child"
It makes me think about the whole show and how the distortions keep happening.
Thank goodnes the Report out Wednesday 29th February states the opposite.
We have enough bullying and enough "nazi excuse" peple condoning as if they were guards in Guantanamo when david Hicks was there "We were just doing our jobs"/
Shame Shame Shame.
Hope this Green Left Weekly doesn't stop showing if they follow up what the Report has suggested.
Thanks for allowing me to say this.
the Greens are and have done a lot of very fine work for Inquiry
I'm here saying I think the Greens deserve a lot of credit for the now released Report.
For being so tireless and extending of themselves with this Senate Inquiry into forced adoptions.
They instigated it via Senator Rachel Siewert, highly commendable, and they didn't stop until they gathered enough evidence and wide overview from not just the submissions, though there were approx. 400 of these if not more.
There were forces that didn;t want these truths to be unearthed, we all know this.
However, they are now as several Senators have rightly said 'in the history books as truth,'
'forced adoptions from traumatised, bullied and highly vulnerable mostly adolescent mothers with their infants'.
The reports been tabled and now there is the follow through which the Report has recommended.
It should be of interest to all and any who care about our fellow man and the past social injustices where any human rights or unethical to degree of horror acts happen.
It is to many I know.
Thanks Green Left Weekly for leaving your site open as this all progresses.
(The work has been done but the apologies from state and territory plus commonwealth have as yet been given etc.)
Carl
ABC 4 Corners 'Given or Taken' about Forced Adoptions
It seemed to my colleague and self the 4 Corners program 'Given or Taken?' was saying "It was the attitude of the day".
This is questionable for a number of reasons.
All throughout history there have been emotionally intelligent men and women who have felt empathy.
As a matter of fact it's not only emotionally intelligent who have and do feel this emotion, all adults have or should acquire this capacity and act on it, it's part of humanity.
Where was it when forced adoptions occurred? (and we're talking over quarter of a milllion mothers and babies here).
Best wishes to the targets of the bully's
J.Lee
Inquiry into Forced Adoptions Stolen babies/taken by force babie
All forced adoptions babies were robbed from their natural mothers by stealth, deception, discimination, ommissions of duty of care or due care and patient care and mistreatments that amount for many to tortures which produced Very profound pysychological and it's other aspect physical traumas which are often ongoing.
There is some reprieve with specialised professional non drug often grief counselling or non drug analysis.
That answers the question about 'stolen babies'.
Whether they be from indigenous, anglo saxon, european or any other culture the mothers, and fathers who admitted paternity, their infants obviously, were not given any voices choices or supports to even hold feed love and nurture their own flesh and blood let alone raise them into childhood and then adulthood.
I'm confused by the last few comments
Isn't the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions looking at infants who were stolen?
Forced Adoptions are a form of stealing an infant from one's natural parent/s.
That's my impression, whether they be anglo, european, indigenous or any culture?
If anyone has clear views about this would appreciate their wisdom.
Thankyou
I was weong about 4 Corners and too cynical
I wrote something about 4 Corners which I now see was not fair or right.
The 'Given or Taken?' was just a title. Though possibly title's draw attention and may need to be revised?
What I warched and actively listened too on this program what my friends and family saw was sensitive journalism and a whole lot of terrible sadness from the targets, as well as very fine talks from staff and Shirlee Swain, and for my self especially Dr. Geoffrey Rickarby who I know to be so aware about forced adoptions from many many years of working with these.
What a fine program and I hope ABC air more after the Report is finalised.
Thankyou ABC. Please excuse my cynicism or whatever it was I expressed prior.
Thankyou Green Left weekly
Inquiry into forced adoptions
My interest is that of one of the stolen children and at the age of 64 I still don't know the truth. It's so demoralising when I'm asked for family medical history and I can't give any answers. I have never been loved by the couple who raised me, he abused me - physically, emotionally and sexually while at the same time being an upstanding member of the local catholic community who had (through his occupation) had extended contact with other children and I often wonder if he abused them as well?
To put it mildly I'm a square peg in a round hole, always have been and always will be, I don't have any sense of belonging and nobody could care less if I was dead or alive. That's a fact I've had to face. I was sent to a catholic school in the 1950's and was continually canned, often with comments along the line of my 'father' not paying school fees and of course when I arrived home and relayed these messages from the nuns, he would go into a fit of rage and take the belt from his trousers and I would be beaten once more...this time with the belt buckle. My 'mother' was a hypochondriac and I wonder if this was her way of keeping out of his sight although she never spoke out when he was beating me, she used to tell me quietly later, that I should change my ways and not be so naughty because I deserved all I was getting.
My 'sister' was (imho) their natural daughter and we were treated soooo differently it wasn't funny. There MUST be people who know the truth about my background and none of them will admit to knowing anything, they just change the subject when I ask questions. I even posted a notice in the newspaper where I was raised, asking for someone to send confidential and anonymous information...all I got was abuse from one anonymous person, claiming to be a friend of my 'mothers'. From the vitriol she sprouted she doesn't know the story anyway because there were untruths in her letter.
Where does someone in my situation start their search? BD&M told me on several occasions there is no notation of my birth record, and that the original handwritten records were destroyed in a fire at Crown Street Women's Hospital in approx 1952. I believe that my birth mother was in fact my maiden aunt and I was adopted by her brother and his wife all done through the catholic church but of course, I haven't been able to confirm or deny this fact either. It's mainly a gut feeling coupled with little snippets over many years that all point to this assumption. Nevertheless I still feel robbed...and where/who is my birth father? A clairvoyant told me he was either a catholic priest or an officer in the Army...both could have been correct because the spinster aunt had male friends from both occupations. Yes, I know what some of you are saying about clairvoyants and I was exactly the same....100% cynical BUT on both occasions they revealed parts of my background that NOBODY knew about, except of course, those who were secretly involved.
Whatever remains of those birth records should be made available to ALL of us who request them....I know some people won't want to know of their past and that's OK, but for those of us who do, the records should be available free of charge.
In closing I also feel for the thousands of women who's babies were taken from them and fully support this inquiry but I feel it should be extended to cover the stolen children as well, otherwise it's pointless covering only one side of the equation.
Maybe it''s how they Apologise and what they do to show this?
Maybe it's not good enough to say Sorry, Apologise or ask the targets of Forced Adoptions (Adoptees and their Mothers and Fathers) for their Forgiveness, and it's all about what they actually do to show that Apology or Sorry or ask for Forgiveness is Sincere and followed through.
I think so.
Adoptees & natural parents agree, Sorry is not good enough
I agree a petty Sorry is not enough.
Whoops we just damagingly abused many thousands, weren't thinking.
John Cleese could make a great skit of this one. yet it's no joke at all.
ABC 4 Corners are showing a program tonight 27th February 2012 at 8.30 called 'Given orTaken?' The title appears negative biased against the natural mums ;cause there's now ample evidence the babies were coerced away from many thousands of natural mothers.
There's too many commonalities to ignore this truth.
It's a bit sad too because the two sides will be
1) Those affected by forced adoptions right from the coal face
20 Staff who were on that coal face as adult professionals meant to be caring for their maternity patients.
The latter (social worker and hospital staff) have claimed in a pre-news media write up about the 4 Cormers program 'we didn't ask them to sign' and 'they the mothers] didn't want to see their babies': Ballony.
There might have been one or two who fall into this line, but they would be the exception not the rule, and raising that is an obvious attempt to avoid accountabilty and responsibilty for forced adoptions they played a part in.
Shame shame shame/
Do they want to knock down the targets of forced adoptions yet again. They can't and wont do this.
Bullys beware, you're like two year olds holding your hands over your eyes saying 'you can't see me' when everyone can.
With all human respect for two year olds who are two.
Inquiry into Forced Adoptions
Tomorrow night on 4 Corners there'll be a show called 'Given or Taken?' about forced adoptions. (it's not only the question mark that has aroused a lot of peoples justifiable ire and for some justifiable outrage.).
The programs all well and good except when you realise the title to begin with is negative biased and questioning harshly the integrity and honesty of hundreds of forced adoption targets who've submitted to the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions not excluding the many other thousands who are known to have suffered from this social injustice.
Many still do to our national shame.
It's recognised 4 Corners is government subsidised news media.
4 Corners may be showing a program that is very much with the direction of the government behind it. This is worth thinking about. Further public Ire and outrage if this it truth.
It's recognised by conscionable people now the harrowing stories are too many and too many to discount as not factual as they have commonalities.
They also come from people who seek only one thing justice for what they had to go through, what many could not endure and no mother and baby should ever have to endure.
Some have called it torture, I and mine would have to agree it certainly is Very profoudly psychologically traumatic to lose your infant at birth via force or coercion; any form of bullying and it happened en masse as is evidenced by the findings on the Inquiry into Forced Adoptions.
Some of but not all the psychological and physical abuses used against the Mothers and the Babies were:
Stilboestral used to de-lactate mothers milk, a carcinogenic drug, without the mothers knowledge nor permission to accept. Not allowing the birth mothers to give their babies their own human sustenance and putting their own lives at risk of cancer.
Pillows over heads or heavily sedating drugs used, many to point of near (at times certain) unconsciousness, rampantly given the mothers to sedate them into a state of further than already confusion to sign (under duress) papers to lose their infants to perfect strangers.
Documented isolation of the targets Mothers with Infants no less, carrying them in their wombs and then birthing them; another form of bullying bordering if not factually torture.
Stigmatising and labeling like cans the mothers as 'bad' 'not good enough' 'wantonly giving up their own blood' 'unwed thereby unfit to mother'.
Stigmatising the babies as if they were (as long ago were labelled) 'illegitimate' a term not in usage far too many decades now.
Not allowing the mothers to see their own born infants at birth, a normal practice by ethical nursing and doctoral staff at materinity facilities, denial of mother/baby nurturance an loving care.
Shaming and blaming mothers who asked for information as until the 90's in most states (yet not all) mothers were denied knowing anything (by law) about their growing children and vice versa.
Shaming and slandering mothers who were the constant outcasts of certain conservative members of society who discriminate/d on the grounds of marital status and turned away from their own throwing them to the wolves.
Surrounding all this ABC 4 Corners television have already publicised their agenda and it reads there will be at least one social worker and other hospital staff who were working at the hospitals (or homes) where these Forced Adoptions occured. They will be on one side and the victimised mothers on the other.
Like a debate yet this is a complex and senstive social injustice not a game.
These staff members (who'd by now be elderly you'd think as most of the targets were very young) have already publicly said on the 4 Corners program advertisement:
'we didn't ask them to sign' (under duress), and 'the mothers didn't want to see their babies'.
If this were the case it would have been the very rare exception and not the rule so why even raise these staff to raise this rubbish.
They did want to see (and love) their babies, it's been shown now. They were coerced to sign what they didn't know anything about, that's also proven truth.
Of course you have to realise they/the ex-staff, have no choice to say otherwise because if they did there would be further outrage than there already is about Forced Adoptions and the abuses therein. The public are sick and tired about hearing of families torn apart from Forced Adoptions, It's by this time a National Shame. Public ire and outrage about it all is real.
There would also be reason for these staff to be held highly accountable, unless they lie as it appears they are going to if we read the advertisement correctly and it was made public without distortion?
The staff on the coal face didn't want to lose face when Forced Adoptions were happening and certainly don't want to do so today. Their reputations were and are being scrutinised and judged. This wont be any less if they continue this line of 'the mothers didn't want to see their babies', and of course 'we didn't ask them to sign papers' etc..Hogwash.
Neither do certain callous conservatives behind the whole national disgrace that forced adoptions were still are want to lose face and stand accountable. Yet they are.
There's something dodgy about a program titling itself 'Given or Taken?' (question mark) after the facts of abuse have been unearthed and proven; empirical data unravelled.
There's something dogy about fact the public who watch 4 Corners television or see this on Monday Night 8.30pm 27th February 2012 or later on iVIEW; will be shown two sides, one with a conflict if interest the workers of the time (it sounds fair yet when you look deeper it isn't) the other being the victimised Forced Adoptions Targets.
One of these has a 'conflict of interest' that stounds out a mile and these are the adult professional staff who were practicing their social wortk and 'caring roles' for the mothers and their babies who lost (not gave) their babies to Forced Adoptions.
I'm unable to abide ABC Television, and Radio going this political to this extent and in the supposed name of truth news media on a social injustice as this human one.
Life matters.
The only reason my wife, family and I will be watching this program is to see if the victimised will yet again be intimidated and floored and to be able to record this if it happens.
If this does occur it reflects back to ABC to be accountable and scrutinised.
The victimised have gone through enough, there's no need for ABC to be this insensible and insensitive.
'Given or Taken?' this title alone leaves the public perplexed and steamrollers over all the empirical data that's emerged about the abuses suffered by targets of Forced Adoptions.
It's noteable this program goes to air two days prior to the Senate Inquiry into Forced Adoptions giving the Australian people their Report.
Thankyou Green Left Weekly.
The Byrnes
My Say ..From An Adoptees point Of View
SORRY IS JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH !!!!
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